[Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

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[Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Jiri Kuthan
Folks,

while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.

-jiri

---
Hello Everybody,

We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.

It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.

Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
members and companies:

     * bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
     * reduce maintenance overhead
     * avoid duplicated efforts in development
     * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
     * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
     * ensure business credibility
     * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business

You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:

http://sip-router.org

There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
see many of you there:
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/

We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
join the new mailing list for further discussions:

http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev

Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team



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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Hi Jiri,

Thank you for pointing this. On a first view, it looks interesting, but
I'm missing some points here (important points):

1) as OpenSER was forked from SER because different views (and the
OpenSER view proved to be a very popular and successful one), I wonder
why, Kamilio is getting back to SER? not sharing any more the OpenSER
view as claimed? because such merging will definitely have a great
impact on the dynamical  and openness of the projects (like releases,
contributions, driving the project)

2) this major change of perspective (at least for kamilio) was a
backstage decision, kept secret from the community - shouldn't be in the
interest of the community to say if going back to the roots (merging
into SER) is something wanted or not? it somehow contradicts the self
existence of OpenSER, right?

3) the benefits you mentions are mainly optimization of the internal
project activities and not optimizations of the outcome - what the
project will deliver. And I guess this is the most important. We already
went though the experience of  large devel community, frameworks, etc
but with no outcome for more than 2 years...

 From my personal perspective, the new project looks more like SER
absorbing Kamilio (considering the sizes, the companies behind each
project, the resources, and the man-power behind each project).

Regards,
Bogdan


Jiri Kuthan wrote:

> Folks,
>
> while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
> I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
> very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
>
> -jiri
>
> ---
> Hello Everybody,
>
> We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
>
> It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
> collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.
>
> Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
> non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
> members and companies:
>
>      * bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
>      * reduce maintenance overhead
>      * avoid duplicated efforts in development
>      * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
>      * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
>      * ensure business credibility
>      * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
> credibility and business
>
> You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:
>
> http://sip-router.org
>
> There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
> 1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
> discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
> see many of you there:
> http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
>
> We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
> developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
> join the new mailing list for further discussions:
>
> http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
>
> Daniel, Jiri
> Kamailio Management Team
> SER Management Team
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
>
>  


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Jiri Kuthan
Hi Bogdan,

first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email
-- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.


Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
as opposed to balkanizing it.

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu wrote:

> Hi Jiri,
>
> Thank you for pointing this. On a first view, it looks interesting, but
> I'm missing some points here (important points):
>
> 1) as OpenSER was forked from SER because different views (and the
> OpenSER view proved to be a very popular and successful one), I wonder
> why, Kamilio is getting back to SER? not sharing any more the OpenSER
> view as claimed? because such merging will definitely have a great
> impact on the dynamical  and openness of the projects (like releases,
> contributions, driving the project)

Our interest has been formulated as "high concentration of developers
should
increase the overall perfection of the software, defined as sound well
thought-of
design, low number of bugs and solid documentation."

It seems that the community is more concerned about serial forking desires
(not meaning the particular SIP feature) than about what you are suggesting.
Also I think that some of these concerns have been largely exaggerated
to serve one own's purpose and over time, they just amortized themselves.

In fact, I think forking is a BAD thing to do, and this process is an
acknowledgment of it. Folks may find more insights about downsides of
forking under the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29


>
> 2) this major change of perspective (at least for kamilio) was a
> backstage decision, kept secret from the community - shouldn't be in the
> interest of the community to say if going back to the roots (merging
> into SER) is something wanted or not? it somehow contradicts the self
> existence of OpenSER, right?

Given the fact, that this is a very public invitation I'm not concerned
about conspiracy theories. In fact, folks are invited to participate by
debating all possible debates, and ideally actual work. So far, all the
feedback I have received both privately and publicly is very positive
-- folks understand that consolidation of effort is a good thing to do.

>
> 3) the benefits you mentions are mainly optimization of the internal
> project activities and not optimizations of the outcome - what the
> project will deliver. And I guess this is the most important. We already
> went though the experience of  large devel community, frameworks, etc
> but with no outcome for more than 2 years...

See above what the key goals are. If you think, something more sound can
be added, I will appreciate such feedback very much.

>
>  From my personal perspective, the new project looks more like SER
> absorbing Kamilio (considering the sizes, the companies behind each
> project, the resources, and the man-power behind each project).

I'm sure there are some who are extremely anxious about size-matters,
and those who love conspiration theories and other fascinating subjects.
In fact, the objectives here are very pragmatic and that's getting
the individuals contributing to SER together, for SER's sake. I see
individuals as key "contributing bodies", even though role of businesses
is to be well understood too, as the individuals are on someone's
payroll and could not keep contributing without sponsoring organizations.

In summary, it seems to me that fortunately all of the concerns above,
are as well-minded as unjustified and the key concerns remains, how do
we actually avoid YAFs.

-jiri


>
> Regards,
> Bogdan
>
>
> Jiri Kuthan wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
>> I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of
>> course
>> very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
>>
>> -jiri
>>
>> ---
>> Hello Everybody,
>>
>> We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
>>
>> It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
>> collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER)
>> teams.
>>
>> Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
>> non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
>> members and companies:
>>
>>      * bring together the developers and user communities of both
>> projects
>>      * reduce maintenance overhead
>>      * avoid duplicated efforts in development
>>      * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
>>      * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
>>      * ensure business credibility
>>      * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
>> credibility and business
>>
>> You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:
>>
>> http://sip-router.org
>>
>> There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
>> 1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
>> discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
>> see many of you there:
>> http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
>>
>> We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
>> developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
>> join the new mailing list for further discussions:
>>
>> http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
>>
>> Daniel, Jiri
>> Kamailio Management Team
>> SER Management Team
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
>>
>>  
>

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Brett Nemeroff
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
Is there any way to make the meeting open to those of us that can't attend in person? Perhaps an audiocast or chat group or something of that nature? 
Thanks,
Brett


On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Jiri Kuthan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Folks,

while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.

-jiri

---
Hello Everybody,

We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.

It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.

Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
members and companies:

    * bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
    * reduce maintenance overhead
    * avoid duplicated efforts in development
    * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
    * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
    * ensure business credibility
    * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business

You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:

http://sip-router.org

There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
see many of you there:
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/

We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
join the new mailing list for further discussions:

http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev

Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team



_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Adrian Georgescu
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
Hello Jiri,

For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies that closely depend on the success of the project and we have contracts with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about who we are, what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor. Clarity is something customers need to have for the sake of their current and future investments.

It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up. Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the eco-system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which happend a lot in the last four years.

The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice once they have enough information and measurements.
 
Regards,
Adrian

On Nov 4, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Jiri Kuthan wrote:

Folks,

while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.

-jiri

---
Hello Everybody,

We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.

It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER) teams.

Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
members and companies:

    * bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
    * reduce maintenance overhead
    * avoid duplicated efforts in development
    * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
    * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
    * ensure business credibility
    * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
credibility and business

You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:

http://sip-router.org

There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
see many of you there:
http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/

We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
join the new mailing list for further discussions:

http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev

Daniel, Jiri
Kamailio Management Team
SER Management Team



_______________________________________________
Users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Jiri Kuthan
Adrian Georgescu wrote:
> Hello Jiri,
>
> For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies
> that closely depend on the success of the project and we have contracts
> with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about who we are,
> what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor. Clarity is
> something customers need to have for the sake of their current and
> future investments.

> It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up.
> Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen
> before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the
> eco-system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which
> happend a lot in the last four years.
>
> The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution
> for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice once
> they have enough information and measurements.

Hi Adrian,

Of course interests of companies and their customers are perfectly
legitimate
and to be accounted for, and transparency is helpful.

I'm just not clear about what possible conclusions relating to the
unforking debate
I may infer?

One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are interested
in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad thing
and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized software.
(More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.

-jiri

>  
> Regards,
> Adrian
>
> On Nov 4, 2008, at 2:46 PM, Jiri Kuthan wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> while there is not yet such a remarkable progress to be shared with those
>> I have chosen to talk to on the opensips side, the invitation is of course
>> very open to anyone with sincere interest in unforking.
>>
>> -jiri
>>
>> ---
>> Hello Everybody,
>>
>> We are pleased to announce to you the SIP Router project.
>>
>> It aims to build a solid open source SIP routing platform, based on
>> collaboration of the SIP Express Router (SER) and Kamailio (OpenSER)
>> teams.
>>
>> Developers of these two projects believe that an united and
>> non-conflicting environment will bring many benefits to them, community
>> members and companies:
>>
>>     * bring together the developers and user communities of both projects
>>     * reduce maintenance overhead
>>     * avoid duplicated efforts in development
>>     * develop a core framework that is flexible, extensible and scalable
>>     * promote and build a solid open source SIP server project
>>     * ensure business credibility
>>     * make future forking undesirable, this harms everybody, affects
>> credibility and business
>>
>> You are welcome to join! Visit the web site at:
>>
>> http://sip-router.org
>>
>> There is a meeting in Karlsruhe, Germany, on Nov 10, 2008, hosted by
>> 1&1, where the developers and community members have the chance to
>> discuss and tune the last aspects of the new project. We are looking to
>> see many of you there:
>> http://sip-router.org/index.php/meeting/
>>
>> We hope this is a great news for you, thanks to the effort of main
>> developers and management teams of the two projects. We invite you to
>> join the new mailing list for further discussions:
>>
>> http://lists.sip-router.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sr-dev
>>
>> Daniel, Jiri
>> Kamailio Management Team
>> SER Management Team
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.opensips.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
>

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Re: forking and unforking

Olle E. Johansson

4 nov 2008 kl. 18.39 skrev Jiri Kuthan:

> One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are  
> interested
> in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad  
> thing
> and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized  
> software.
> (More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
> under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
> Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.

I don't fully agree with you there. Forking might be a good thing and  
in some
cases, the only way forward for a developer or a group of developers.  
There's
a reason why the open source licenses actually gives users and  
developers
the right to fork. And one have to realize, you can't work with  
everyone every
time. In Open Source, you don't pick your community and learn to work  
with
almost every strange type there is. In some cases, chemistry just  
doesn't work.
Often is more about people, than about code, features or actual result.

On the other hand, I personally try to avoid forking at all costs and  
I applaud
the effort to unite. Not because I dislike forking, but that I like  
that so many
highly professional developers with different skills decide to work  
together.
If they prove that they can work together, I think we'll see miracles.  
If they
can't, well at least they tried.

As Adrian says, in the end the result is what counts. As a consultant
and advisor to my customers, I have to be very realistic and at this  
point say
"stick with OpenSER or SER, and wait and see what happens with OpenSIPS,
Kamailio and SER"...  Most of them have working, running platforms and  
there's
no acute need to upgrade.

Let's move forward and bring back the fun to these projects and create
great products!

/O

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Re: [SR-Dev] forking and unforking

Martin Hoffmann
RE: [SR-Dev] forking and unforking

Johansson Olle E wrote:
>
> Forking might be a good thing and 
> in some
> cases, the only way forward for a developer or a group of developers. 
> There's
> a reason why the open source licenses actually gives users and 
> developers
> the right to fork. And one have to realize, you can't work with 
> everyone every
> time. In Open Source, you don't pick your community and learn to work 
> with
> almost every strange type there is. In some cases, chemistry just 
> doesn't work.
> Often is more about people, than about code, features or actual result.

There is essentially two types of forks. One, what could be called
the OpenBSD-type, essentially is a relief to everyone. People that
can't work together split up and everyone is happier afterwards.
Both sides will insist that the other is a bunch of morons, but that
is how it is.

Then there is the EGCS-type. A group of developers believes the old project
to be to slow and stuck in their way and leaves. They proof their point and
after some time, everyone agrees that they had valid points and a merge
happens.

I truly believe that The Original Fork was of the latter type. I think that
we who stuck with SER learned our lessons. We still all have our reasons
why we stayed with SER and I think it important that our reasons are heard
and taken seriously. But in the end the situation is that the community
approach taken by OpenSER is more successful in terms of integrating people
and encouraging to contribute their time and effort.

> Let's move forward and bring back the fun to these projects and create
> great products!

One second, I need to go fill my glass again ... There we are ... I toast
to that!

Best regards,
Mar"Hmm, Merlot"tin


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Dan Pascu
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
On Tuesday 04 November 2008, Jiri Kuthan wrote:
> Hi Bogdan,
>
> first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email

I also find a particular tendency to push others to adopt your view as
being better than theirs in your emails. Now can we skip the personal
characterizations and stick to the relevant points?

> -- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
> very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.

I think he already did. In case you are not aware, every fix in opensips
was quickly ported to kamailio. I'm also sure this will continue, so
indirectly the new project will benefit from his work it seems...

> Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
> contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
> enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
> as opposed to balkanizing it.

Wow. For someone who claims to extend a white flag and an invitation to
peace, you certainly know how to push the right buttons to piss someone
off. Hint: by demonizing the others and making them look like the bad
guys because they don't share your view, won't help in the mediation
process.

> Our interest has been formulated as "high concentration of developers
> should
> increase the overall perfection of the software, defined as sound well
> thought-of
> design, low number of bugs and solid documentation."

We went through 2 intestine fights in this project to know better than
a "high concentration of developers" can also lead to something else than
more coding poper. Did anything change in the attitudes of the involved
parties towards each others to guarantee that this time it will be
different? Because if not it'll be doomed from start. The real issue is
not the man power or concentration of developers, is the relation between
them.

>
> It seems that the community is more concerned about serial forking
> desires (not meaning the particular SIP feature) than about what you
> are suggesting. Also I think that some of these concerns have been
> largely exaggerated to serve one own's purpose and over time, they just
> amortized themselves.
>
> In fact, I think forking is a BAD thing to do, and this process is an
> acknowledgment of it. Folks may find more insights about downsides of
> forking under the following link:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29

You have posted this link 3 times already in the emails you have sent to
this thread, so we know by now that you strongly support this view. While
I agree with you that if possible people should work together rather than
apart, I also know that if they can't work together it's better to work
apart than spend most of the time fighting rather than working.

Besides I strongly disagree that forking is necessarily BAD. In the
opensource software world, forking is the equivalent of freedom of
expression. If some developers feel they cannot express themselves as
they want under the rule of the others and they cannot find a way to
solve the conflict, then by all means forking is their right and the only
way to fully express their potential. Are you suggesting that you would
like to deny their freedom of expression which you see as a BAD thing?

> I'm sure there are some who are extremely anxious about size-matters,
> and those who love conspiration theories and other fascinating
> subjects.

Wow (again). You cannot really expect to be taken seriously in your claim
that you come with a peace offer when you make sarcastic comments like
this and try to make the other party look like the Bad Guys TM.
I would say the only conspiracy I see around is against common sense and
dignity.

> In fact, the objectives here are very pragmatic and that's
> getting the individuals contributing to SER together, for SER's sake. I
> see individuals as key "contributing bodies", even though role of

Is this view of individuals as key "contributing bodies" a new one which
tries to fix the issues that led to openser forking from ser, or did you
view things the same way back then? Because if nothing changed, the
experience will be recreated all over again.

Somehow, your sarcastic comments make me doubt that and also makes me
skeptical of the fact that you will be able to bring people together.

> In summary, it seems to me that fortunately all of the concerns above,
> are as well-minded as unjustified and the key concerns remains, how do
> we actually avoid YAFs.

Usually by having a higher respect for the other involved parties.

--
Dan

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
Hi Jiri,

Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
people want to do.

After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

And I personally do not see any future in keep trying to patch the
existing design as it has no future. If SER and kamilio want to go on
this path, fine with me, not my problem, happy for your joined effort.

But not point in black the idea of somebody forking into a different
direction than yours - nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

Regards,
Bogdan

Jiri Kuthan wrote:

> Adrian Georgescu wrote:
>  
>> Hello Jiri,
>>
>> For myself and Bogdan things are pretty clear. We both have companies
>> that closely depend on the success of the project and we have contracts
>> with customers to which we deliver. There is no doubt about who we are,
>> what we do, what is our motivation and driving factor. Clarity is
>> something customers need to have for the sake of their current and
>> future investments.
>>    
>
>  
>> It is pretty unclear at this stage how the new project will shape up.
>> Merging and forking can lead to inimaginable places as we have seen
>> before several times and is nothing bad in the end as long as the
>> eco-system keeps going and the customers invest further in it, which
>> happend a lot in the last four years.
>>
>> The real customers are the ones that can decide upon the best solution
>> for their own interests and we shall let them express their choice once
>> they have enough information and measurements.
>>    
>
> Hi Adrian,
>
> Of course interests of companies and their customers are perfectly
> legitimate
> and to be accounted for, and transparency is helpful.
>
> I'm just not clear about what possible conclusions relating to the
> unforking debate
> I may infer?
>
> One way I explain to myself you meant to imply is that you are interested
> in working on the merging effort? I really think forking is a bad thing
> and companies and their customers will benefit of non-balkanized software.
> (More sophisticated arguments about why forking is bad could be found
> under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28software_development%29)
> Doing harm control is definitely a good thing to do.
>
> -jiri
>  


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Juha Heinanen
Bogdan-Andrei Iancu writes:

 > Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
 > Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
 > people want to do.
 >
 > After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
 > conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
 > of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
 > etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
 > stateless processing, no TCP, etc....

bogdan,

the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
yourself started.  if it was due to people, that may happen any time
again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
needs.

-- juha

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Olle E. Johansson
In reply to this post by Bogdan-Andrei Iancu

5 nov 2008 kl. 11.41 skrev Bogdan-Andrei Iancu:

> After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
> conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
> of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
> etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
> stateless processing, no TCP, etc....
>
> And I personally do not see any future in keep trying to patch the
> existing design as it has no future
Bogdan,

Thanks for the good insight in why you don't want to join the effort,
but go your own way. If you have different ideas for the core than what
you understand from the other teams, then there's no reason for you
to join the effort. I did not realize that was the case, now I do  
understand
you better.

> nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!

A good way of expressing it :-)

At the same time, there's something to be said for the old, solid and  
good
non-forked original product... Abba is still more enjoyable than all the
forks... Ha ha!

Cheers,
/O

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Alex Balashov
Johansson Olle E wrote:

> Abba is still more enjoyable than all the forks... Ha ha!

True!

--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web    : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel    : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Jiri Kuthan
In reply to this post by Dan Pascu
Hi Dan,

I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it, but I can
make my point in plain English too: I don't find it ethical to
respond to an open invitation by a way which is just an attack.
I mean the attempt to show the un-forking effort as something
which is conspiracy, absorption of one project by another, etc,
just anything but collaborative effort is very disappointing
to me. That was not a constructive email, that was an attempt
to poison, which I'm very disapproving of. I'm hopeful you consider
to chose to lend your name to  more positive activities.

There is many points in your emails I find horribly disagreeable,
but I think it is more appropriate to share those with you privately.
I don't think there can be any reasonable outcome of such
a debate, so excuse me I stop here.

Let me make just the point why I'm postig to this mailing list:
I think there are very many folks just confused by this serial forking
habit and also by the competition for the DNS name. For those,
I have a good message: ser and kamailio folks are working on
a joint project which is both technically sound, and has some
credible governance as well. Individuals willing to help are
invited to this effort, regardless with which "camp" they feel
themselves affiliated with.

-jiri

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
Jiri,

This is a typical email of yours - rude and highly political - you keep
accusing people and doing political statements without any backbone. I
got used for the last 3 years with this - on the openser mailing lists
and now here.

This list is not intended for this - it is to help people in using a
piece a software and, as respect for them, please refrain from polluting
it with your political agenda.

If you do not have the nerve for listening other people comments about
your actions, then do post them for discussion. Also, if you do not
agree with somebody's else opinion, you can come up with arguments and
explanations against it.

Also, if you have unclarities about any of my previous
comments/statements, I'm ready to sustain them with arguments, in a fair
manner. The same arguments I considered 2 months ago when you came with
the same merging proposal for opensips.

Regards,
Bogdan

PS: I know that OpenSIPS is the last one standing as alternative for SER
right now, but let's have a fair game.
 

Jiri Kuthan wrote:

> Hi Dan,
>
> I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
> email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it, but I can
> make my point in plain English too: I don't find it ethical to
> respond to an open invitation by a way which is just an attack.
> I mean the attempt to show the un-forking effort as something
> which is conspiracy, absorption of one project by another, etc,
> just anything but collaborative effort is very disappointing
> to me. That was not a constructive email, that was an attempt
> to poison, which I'm very disapproving of. I'm hopeful you consider
> to chose to lend your name to  more positive activities.
>
> There is many points in your emails I find horribly disagreeable,
> but I think it is more appropriate to share those with you privately.
> I don't think there can be any reasonable outcome of such
> a debate, so excuse me I stop here.
>
> Let me make just the point why I'm postig to this mailing list:
> I think there are very many folks just confused by this serial forking
> habit and also by the competition for the DNS name. For those,
> I have a good message: ser and kamailio folks are working on
> a joint project which is both technically sound, and has some
> credible governance as well. Individuals willing to help are
> invited to this effort, regardless with which "camp" they feel
> themselves affiliated with.
>
> -jiri
>


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
In reply to this post by Juha Heinanen
Hi Juha,

because, as I stated it many times, in the end, the decisions taken in
openser had nothing to do technical logic. Shortly, the was no
intellectual honesty in regards to technical part.

Regards,
Bogdan


Juha Heinanen wrote:

> Bogdan-Andrei Iancu writes:
>
>  > Have you ever consider a fork as an option driven by technical needs??
>  > Like to do something totally different than you have and than the other
>  > people want to do.
>  >
>  > After 7 year of SER/OpenSER I (and many other) got to simplest
>  > conclusion that the current design is not able to sustain the progress
>  > of SER / OpenSER (like scripting, async calls, integration, scaling,
>  > etc) ? Mainly because SER was design 7 years ago when there was only
>  > stateless processing, no TCP, etc....
>
> bogdan,
>
> the above makes sense, but i have never been able to figure out why you
> could not implement the new designs as part of openser project that you
> yourself started.  if it was due to people, that may happen any time
> again (unless you work alone) and has nothing to do with technical
> needs.
>
> -- juha
>
>  


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
In reply to this post by Olle E. Johansson
Johansson Olle E wrote:
>> nature invented forking for seeking new alternatives!
>
> A good way of expressing it :-)
>
> At the same time, there's something to be said for the old, solid and
> good
> non-forked original product... Abba is still more enjoyable than all the
> forks... Ha ha!
Well, even ABBA broke apart (forked?), isn't it ;)

Regards,
Bogdan


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Dan Pascu
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
On Thursday 06 November 2008, Jiri Kuthan wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> I'm very sorry for yourself you have chosen to advocate Bogdan's
> email. Surely I have been ironic in responding to it,

I was not advocating Bogdan's email, I was criticizing your attempt to
belittle and demonize the other party in an attempt to elevate your
position by contrast. I found that to be in serious contradiction with
your goal of uniting the people under a common banner. If they do not
wish to do that, you should respect their choice no matter of their
reason, instead of being sarcastic and implying that going their way
is "A Bad Thing To Do". It's not.

And stop condescending us. It's not helping you look like the person that
is able to mediate a conflict and unite a split project.

--
Dan

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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Bogdan-Andrei Iancu
In reply to this post by Jiri Kuthan
I will simply ignore this email as I find it extremely rude and
completely disconnected from reality.

Only a single note: there is no bitterness and negativism - only keeping
my feet on the ground and looking further the glorious words and
political movements. Simply being realistic.

Let's say I have inside information as you come with the same proposal
to me (to merge opensips into ser) and based on this I have my own
understanding of the reasons and of the goals of this un-forking.
Unfortunately everything is pure politics and survival.

Bogdan

Jiri Kuthan wrote:

> Hi Bogdan,
>
> first of all, I find particular bitterness and negativism in your email
> -- I sincerely hope you will find that actually this project is aimed
> very positively, and will find your ways to contribute to its success.
>
>
> Of course that's not invitation just to you, but to anyone seriosly
> contributing to SER (and all of its variants). I think we have had
> enough forking confusion and we better spend time on developing SER
> as opposed to balkanizing it.
>


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Re: [Fwd: [Serdev] the sip router project]

Dan Pascu
In reply to this post by Dan Pascu
On Thursday 06 November 2008, Jiri Kuthan wrote:
> I'm really sorry for you, what can I say.

Stop being condescending. I really do not appreciate this kind of
manipulative stance. If you really want to act like a leader and mediator
you should stop trying to make others feel guilty for their choice of not
buying what you're selling.

To make things clear: I do not believe a fork is necessarily a bad thing,
I do not feel bad about it and I do not look back with regrets, though I
cannot stop noticing that some people have lingering regrets, considering
the amount of emotional distress displayed in messages exchanged on the
subject, even now after so many years.

So, I'm pretty happy with what I do now and I'm not interested in this new
joint project, nor do I see it as any form of competition. As a result, I
do not feel any need to argue any points about it. From me, all the best
realizing what you set your mind to.

--
Dan

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